KUNIGAS SUTUOKĖ GĖJUS

Autorius: Tomas Data: 2010-03-01 Temos: Atgarsiai, Bažnyčia ir visuomenė

Germain Dufour

Prancūzakalbė žiniasklaida praneša, kad tėvas Germain Dufour, kapucinas kunigas, buvęs Žaliųjų partijos aktyvistas, “Saint-Servais bažnyčioje Lježe, vasario 13 d. (Šv. Valentino dienos išvakarėse) sutuokė (!) homoseksualią porą”.
Belgijos vyskupų konferencijos atstovas spaudai Eric de Beukelaere, tai pavadino “apgailėtinu įvykiu” ir “ceremonija, kuri sukelia painiavą”.

Apie jokias sankcijas Dufour, kuris yra Tournai vyskupijos kunigas, neužsimenama nė žodeliu. Negi, Katalikų Bažnyčioje ateina laikas, kai kunigai gali daryti, kas jiems šauna į galvą?

Patiko (11)

Rodyk draugams

758 komentarai

Ir labai protingai padarė. Kiek gi galima šalintis ir diskriminuoti mažumas.

Mantas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Negi ateina laikai, kai nebegalėsi daryt to, ko trokšti? Galbūt pas juos meilė neišpasakyta liepsnoja. Mano manymu, geriau sutuokti du vyrus, kurie myli vienas kitą, negu vyrą ir moterį, kurie, kaip paskutiniu metu madinga ir būtina, tuokiasi iš reikalo. Banalūs tokie įrašai.

Skaitau. | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Atejo is tiesu laikai, kai zmones,o ne baznycia, ir ne kai kurie kunigai, supranta kad Dievas dave gyvybe, nieko jis nesmerkia ir ne vieno neteisia. Kaip tu, Tomai nori gyventi, skleistis, myleti, ir budamas neigalus to nori, taip ir tei neigalus sakykime gejai, nori lygiai to paties. bet tau Tomai, atrodo, kad pazisti absoliucia tiesa ir gali kitus ir smerkti ir teisti.
Nebuk fanatikas, buk realistas. Gal tada tavo tikejimas i Kristu nebus toks arsus ir primenantis inkvizicija

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Jei bažnytinė santuoka tik graži ceremonija - žinoma, koks skirtumas…

Tomas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
As palaikau Tomo pozicija…Jai jau manote,kad Dievas taip sukure pasauly,tai jus klystate…nes Dievas sukure vyra ir motery…o ne vyra ir vyra ar motery ir motery.Taip kad situo argumentu ,zongliruoti yra apsurdiska jog jie myli vienas kita:)Meile ne vien uzpakalinis yvazevimas,tai yra zenkliai daugiau…Mane neramina kunigu ir vyskupu ejimas link sios gyvensenos…LT baznycioje manau atsirastu nemazai praktikuojanciu geju…apmaudu,bet jie yra net su padetim…Tomai tavo pozicija teisinga,ir toliau taip.

Kodel?Agniete... | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Smagu. Šaunuolis kunigas. Kam ta katalikiška šeimofobija?

valdas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Išties kam Biblija, kuri nedviprasmiškai smerkia homoseksualumą.

Tomas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Deja kataliku baznycioje ypatingai daznas reiskinys raganu medziokle. Tik laikai pasikeite ir zmones, vadinamieji i Kristu itikejusieji, pazenge dau daugiau ir mastyme ir tolerancijoj ir stengiasi myleti, kas ir yra didysis Dievo isakymas-myleti vieni kitus. Smerkimas ir kritika yra silpnuju pozicija ir tai parodo kad neapykanta, kuria baznycia parodo kitaip gyvenantiems, mastantiems, yra tik tai sprogmuo, kuris ja pacia ir isprogdina is vidaus. neapykanta yra baisiausias dalykas baznycioje. Ir ne gejai cia kalti, bet visa zinantys ir ismanantys ir teisiantys be islygu kitus. Bet galbut jie tokie, nes niekas ju niekada ir nemylejo.

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Čia ne katalikų problema, nes didžioji dauguma krikščionių smerkia homo reiškinį kaip nukreiptą prieš Dievo sukurtą tvarką.
Meilė nuodėmės netoleruoja.

Tomas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Butent meile ir toleruoja nuodeme, nes myli daugiau negu klaida, negu nuodeme. Kristus mylejo laisvai, didingai ir atleido, gailejosi. Meile butent yra isgelbejimas ir gyvenimas ir gyvybe ir niekas nera auksciau Kristaus, net gi Tomas

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Tikrai Agniete nesitaikau į Kristaus vietą.
Tik iš Tavo pozicijos nesupratau vieno dalyko: jei kaip sakei “meile ir toleruoja nuodeme”, kodėl mirė Kristus?

Tomas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
kristus mire, nes buvo Dievas ir kai kam reikejo Dieva nukryziuoti, kad islaikyti paprasta rabiniska zemiska valdzia.Tie, kas ji zude, zinojo ka dare

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
O kaip su apaštalo Pauliausmokymu, kad Kristus mirė, kad pasmerktų nuodėmę?

Tomas | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Sutuokė Valentino dienos išvakarėse.
Juokingiausia, kad kalinių žargonu poza, kada vyras tratina vyra, turi savo įvardinimą- “valentinkė”. Atleiskit už grubų palyginimą, bet tas tėveliukas kapucinas pasielgė taip, tarsi būtų ištratintas tų abiejų draugužių, kuriuos sutuokė. Ir ištratintas per visus galus.
O dabar jį “dulkins” ne tik Bažnyčios hierarchai (tą dar galim pakęst), bet ir jo parapijiečiai. Paprasti žmonės. Va čia tai yra pragaras.
Fotografijoje, kuri įdėta šiame straipsniukyje, žvilgsnis to tėtušėlio man primena Rasputino žvilgsnį. Kas matė jo nuotraukas, tas supras ką turiu omeny.

Rytis | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Va kaip gerai

droo | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
be apastalo Pauliaus visa pagarba jam, buvo dar ir kitu, kurie kazka kita Kristuje pamate. Tik deja, nei ju rastu, nei ju paciu neisliko. Nuodeme nera viskas. Zmogaus didybe yra viskas. kristus zmogus parodo visiems laikams kad zmogaus kilnumas , didybe, grozis, yra viskas. nuodeme, kuri yra ir kurios neisvengiame, nera nei tikslas, nei kazkas uz ka reiketu taip kenteti ir mirti. Uz Dievo zenla zmoguje, jo kilnybe, jo siekimus, jo sugebejima myleti, jo troskuli gyventi, jo grozi, parodanti Dievo zenkla mumyse, galima ir numirti.

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Is kur zinai apie tuos kitus kuriu nei rastu neisliko:)??? Bet zodinis palikimas jauciu iki taves atkelevo:)ar tik ne geju lupomis:)?Buvo kitu kurie moke ir Kristuje mate kitka nei Paulius :)Agniete nestumk:)o gal tu Agnius:)?Siaip jokio skirtumo,bet kada gejai tampa norma,man tai visai neskanu.

Agniete... | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Net mokslas irode kad tarp vyro ir moters yra tik 1 chromosomos skirtumas. Labai nedaug. Bet palieku norincius pasisviesti sveikatos pasiekimuose, gal ka naujo atras, negu fondamentalisma ir ribotuma. teisti lengviausia, sveistis sunkiausia

Agniete | 2010-03-01 | Atsakyti
Santuokos pirmasis tikslas yra vaikų gimdymas, antrasis – sutuoktinių tarpusavio meilė ir pagalba.

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Aš žinoma, [tiesa, nebūdamas kataliku] labai sveikinu šitą akivaizdžiai nepopuliarų RKB daugumoje veiksmą.

Atskirai noriu paprieštarauti gerb. Agnietei. Jūs rtašote: “Kristus mire, nes buvo Dievas ir kai kam reikejo Dieva nukryziuoti, kad islaikyti paprasta rabiniska zemiska valdzia.Tie, kas ji zude, zinojo ka dare”.

Ar nėra taip, kad tai ITIN pritaikoma dabartinei RKB kaip administracinės-klerikalinės galios struktūrai, vadinamąjam “Moraliniam Autoritetui”? Kas gi labiausiai “kryžiuoja” ir smerkia kitamanius nusidėjelius, prieštaraujančius ‘rabiniškai valdžiai’, nematant juose Kristaus Veido, gyvojo D-vo atvaizdo kiekviename? Atsiverskime porą LKB komunikatų, rašytų dr. Subačiaus ir ko, arba tų pačių Bernardinų publikuojamas nuomones ir taps aišku, kad derėtų prieš tai išsiimti geroką rastgalį iš akies [tą visi pirmiausia turėtume daryti, tiesa?]

Algirdas Davidavičius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Mielas Algirdai, RKB smerkia ne kitamanius, o jų nevaldomas aistras ir neteisingai sudėliotus Dievo-Žmogaus hierarchinius santykius.

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Aš taip pat labai sveikinu šį labai evangelišką kunigo žingsnį. Kaip savo knygoje The Church and the Homosexual atskleidžia tėvas jėzuitas (ir psichoterapeutas)John McNeill (pagrindinės jo knygos tezės http://www.johnjmcneill.com/TCTH.HTML), remdamasis šiuolaikine bibline egzegeze - homosexuali orientacija yra žmogui duota kaip Dievo dovana, o ne kažkokia absoliučiai nuodėminga situacija, kad homosexualūs asmenys yra ne kažkokia grėsmė visuomenei, bet atvirkščiai - visuomenei be jų - didelė grėsmė dėl socialinio jautrumo deficito… Ir kad legalizuoti homoseksualių asmenų konstruktyvius, ilgalaikius meilės santykius - tai ne nuodėmės įteisinimas. Atvirkščiai, Bažnyčia, atsisakydama įteisinti, smerkdama, stumia juos į nuodėmingą ir pavojingą gyvenimą, į autodestrukciją, nes genami primesto kaltės jausmo dalis jų nepajėgia užmegsti pastovių rimtų, įsipareigojančių santykių, pradeda klimpti į trumpalaikius atsitiktinius, netgi anoniminius, ir tik seksualiniam poreikiui patenkinti… Ir klausimas tada - o kaip jiems Bažnyčia siūlo gyventi? Celibato laikytis?????
Ir dar kas man toje knygoje labai patiko - jis ragina skirti teisę nuo moralės. Ne viskas, kas teisėta, yra moralu, pvz., vyro verčiama turėti su juo santykių žmona, kai nėra jokios tarpusavio meilės… Moralu, nors ir neteisėta (bažnytiškai) yra turėti santykių mylint vienam kitą kad ir tos pačios lyties asmenims.

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
eismo - jau gerokai atgyvenusi nuomonė - dar XX a. pradžioje Bažnyčioje priimta nuostata, kad pirmasis santuokos tikslas - sutuoktinių tarpusavio meilė, o vaikai - antrinis, kaip meilės vaisius

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
sodoma+gomora

danielius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Agniete, šita tavo tezė “kristus mire, nes buvo Dievas ir kai kam reikejo Dieva nukryziuoti, kad islaikyti paprasta rabiniska zemiska valdzia. Tie, kas ji zude, zinojo ka dare” RKB tapo “normatyvia” XIII-XIV a., ir ja buvo grindžiamas visas tuo metu prasidėjęs Europoje žydų netoleravimo vajus… Tai labai pavojinga tezė. Pagal dabartinę RKB poziciją - katalikai jos turėtų atsisakyti kaip skatinančio neapykantą žydams. Kita vertus, istoriškai žiūrint, tai visiška nesąmonė

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Homoseksualumas egzistuoja gamtoje, tai retas reiskinys, todel ne visi yra gejai. Tai paprasciausia genetika, o ji kartais sutrinka, ar ne taip Tomai?
Tai gi gamtoje tai normalus reiskinys. Buvo straipsnis apie 2 pingvinus gejus, kurie isivaikino naslaiti pingviniuka.
natura yra natura, t y gamta, o ji tokia kokia yra.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
taip, Andriau, ir aukštesnėse primatų rūšyse tai net ne sutrikimas, o natūralus reiškinys, pavyzdžiui tarp bonobo beždžionių homosexualūs santykiai atkuria vidinę bendruomenės taiką ir susitaikymą

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Aciu Ausra

Ir visiskai pritariu Agnietei. Zydai zinojo ka dare, nes vienintelis tiklsbuvo issaugoti valdzia.ir kataliku inkvizicija zinojo ka dare, nes reikejo issaugoti ir nudobti kiekviena ne taip mastanti, ir Tomas zino ka daro, skleisdamas ir kurstytdamas zmones pries gejus ir teigdamas, kas jis Tomas, geresnis, svaresnis, ir visaip kitaip katalikas. galetu is vezimo pasikelti tai butu arsus inkvizitorius

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Sveikinu, saunuolis kapucinas!
Na, man tai anei teologiniai, anei moraliniai klausimai nekyla. Tik paprasti buitiniai. Kodel pamirstam, kad religiniai tekstai seni ir simboliski ir nenorim atsisakyt dogmu b u t e n t geju atzvilgiu? Jei jau sumastem, kad ner rasizmo ir visi po oda vienodi, ir vergija -atgyvenes reiskinys, ir net tik vyras gali but seimos galva…etc.etc.tai ko gi analogiojs nepratest ir nustot gejus persekiojus? Koks skirtumas, kas su kuo mylisi, bile suauge ir susitare. Kaip gerai pastebeta vieno mano kolegos: juk neinam dantu taisytis pas dantista, kuris taiko,sakysim, viduramziu metodus, kad ir kaip tie metodai tradicijos laikytusi. Tai kodel norim konsultuotis morales klausimais pagal atgyvenusia dogma? Tada grazinam vergija, atimam is moteru balsavimo teises ir dantis uz danti…

Solveiga | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
miela Aušra, kaip bekeistum sakinių konstrukciją, vaikų gimdymas iš santuokos neišnyksta … surogatinės motinos nedidina socialinės integracijos..

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
to eismo
Deja, daugiausiai vaiku dabar gimsta ne santuokoje, o kiti is vis vaiku nenori, o kiti dar ka nors. Kur problema? Bet gi viskas turi suktis apie kataliku baznycios asi. O kodel? Senas vynas kaip ir senos dogmos buna suruge

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Andriau, žydai neturėjo tokios valdžios, jei jau apie tai, ir tuo labiau rabiai tuo metu… Valdžia buvo romėnų, ir romėnai nukryžiavo, saugodami savo valdžią, bijodami maišto… Gal, - bet tai didelis mokslinių diskusijų, iki šiol nesibaigusių, klausimas - su romėnais kolaboravo aukštoji kunigija. bet kunigija nebuvo rabiai. Skirti reikia. Ir kunigija galėjo siekti valdžios išlaikymo, net jei jie ir buvo pavaldūs Romai. Kita vertus - tikrai manai, kad ji žinojo, ką daro, t.y. kad jie žinojo, kad Jėzus - Dievas???? Net mokiniai to nesuvokė, kol jiems “nedašilo”, pasak NT, kažkuriuo metu po Jėzaus prisikėlimo… Ir jeigu jau kalbam apie valdžios išsaugojimo siekį visais laikais tų, kurie ją turi, tame tarpe ir Bažnyčią - su tuo visiškai sutinku… Nesutinku ir griežtai protestuoju prie visų judėjų sukergimą į vieną kažkokią abstrakčią valdžią, siekiančią viešpatauti… Galima kalbėti tik apie atskiras galią turėjusias grupes, socialinius sluoksnius

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Izraelis nors ir romenu okupacijoje, turejo savo teises, turejo savo religija ir taip toliau. kam kam o jau tam didziajam kunigui tai tikrai kaip pati sakai dasilo, kas buvo kas.Bet jau cia istorija. Zmogus nera jau tokia butybe kuri nezino ka daro. Kai kas zino labai gerai ka daro ir pasirenka tai samoningai daryti, kiti nemasto, todel daznai nezino, kitiems is vis viskas vienodai, tai ne ijie masto, nei jie iesko. Esme net ne cia. Esme yra neapykantos kurstyme. Kam reikia tai daryti?

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Na, Evangelijos nėra istorija, tai teologinės istorijos interpretacijos, beje, gana prieštaringos, priklausomai nuo jas rašiusių autorių jau gerokai po tų įvykių… Ir interpretacijos tik vienos pusės… Kad galėčiau kaltinti tuos, kurie priėmė sprendimus dėl Jėzaus, turėčiau išklausyti ir jų… bet deja deja, jokie istoriniai šaltiniai nieko nesako, todėl iš principo negaliu mesti kaltinimų… O nepagrįstų kaltinimų mėtymas ir yra neapykantos kurstymas, ir čia krikščionys yra didieji meistrai, pradedant tais pačiais evangelijų autoriais, kurių interpretacijomis besiremdami krikščionys neretai iki šiol kursto tarpusavyje neapykantą visiems žydams.

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Aušra, nusikalbi kaip reta, kuris gi Bažnyčios dokumentas kursto neapykantą žydams ???

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Gerbiamieji internautai, straispnis buvo ne apie zydus bet apie gejus.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Andriau, ačiū už gražinimą į temą o Aušra yra arši feministė nepraleidžianti progos apšmeižti Bažnyčią …

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Žiūriu, kad kol manęs nebuvoprie interneto užsimezgė aštri ir karšta diskusija.
Man ypač malonu, kad į ją įsijungė ir daktarė Aušra Pažėraitė.
Tiesa, turiu pastebėti, kad stebiuosi, jog pliūpsniais atakuojama RKB, kad persekioja gėjus.
Tačiau toks šviesuolis kaip Rowan Wiliamson yra pasakęs, kad gėjų šventinimas į vyskupus “įžeidžia anglikonų jausmus”.
Liuteronų vyskupas Sabutis sako: “Biblija labai aiškiai mums nusako tai, kas yra nuodėmė, t.y. tai, kas skiria mus nuo Dievo ir Jį paniekina. Tarp daugelio nuodėmių Biblija mums aiškiai nurodo homoseksualius santykius, kaip Dievui nepriimtinus, griaunančius žmogaus ir Dievo santykį, galiausiai – sunaikinančios žmogų ir visuomenę.
Šiuo atveju visiškai nesvarbios „mokslinės“ išvados, ar potraukis tai pačiai lyčiai yra įgyjamas, ar įgimtas (jos iki šiol rimtai nepagrįstos). Tokio potraukio praktinis įgyvendinimas yra nuodėmė. Tas pats galioja ir visoms kitoms nuodėmėms – žmogus už savo veiksmus yra atsakingas prieš Dievą. Tad Bažnyčia kviečia tikinčiuosius ieškoti ne pateisinimo nuodėmei, o išteisinimo Jėzuje Kristuje. Ne užsimiršimo tariamoje modernios visuomenės dvasioje, o Dievo pagalbos maldoje ir susilaikyme.”
Taip kalba ne katalikai. Tai vyraujanti pozicija krikščionybėje.
Man vienodai piešia, kas ir kaip patenkina savo lytiškumą. Pagaliau ir celibato nelaikau blogiu, nes virš 30 m. jis man buvo geras tarnystės įrankis.
Tačiau homoseksualumo normalizacija (”Dievo dovana”) žmogaus lytiškumą susiaurina iki hedonizmo. Žmogaus kūne nėra tokios dovanos ženklo. Jei tai būtų dovana egzistuotų lyties organų kitokia sandara.
Homoseksualumas yra išimtis, kurią renkasi individas. Gėjų atveju mes jau turime politiką, kuriai manau ne vieta Bažnyčioje.
Beje, čia minėti sulyginimai su rase ir neįgalumu yra netikslūs Homoseksualumas yra orientacija, o ne statusai kaip yra rasės, lyties, neįgalumo atvejais.

Tomas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Tomai, na iš tiesų įdomu tave skaityti ir matyti poziciją, kurią bandai ginti net nebesurastamas įtikinančių argumentų.Tvirtini tiktai poziciją ir daugiau nieko.
Prisistatai žurnalistu, publicistu, teologu, vertybių gynėju ir taip toliau. Ar turi diplomus theologijos, žurnaklistikos, socialinių mokslų. Tavo pozicija be mokslo, be švietimosi universitetuose ir lieka tokia skurdi pozicija, fanatiška, viduramžiška ir taip toliau. Todel ir vadinasi tavo svetaine pasaulis pagal Tomą. bet tai tik tavo pasaulis ir nesame mes įpareigoti tikėti ir klausyti ir pritarti tavam pasauliui. Pasaulis deja keičiasi, tobulėja, progresuoja ir žmonės puikiai supranta m kad gali būti žmoguje genetinis defektas, kuris jį padaro kitokiu. Ir apie orientaciją nėra nei kalbos, nes daug ką, labai daug ką įtakoja paprasčiausias gamtos apsirikimas. Bet Dievas ačiū Jam, sukūrė žmogų ir jeigu jame yra defektas, tai Dievas jį myli dar labiau.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
“Išties kam Biblija, kuri nedviprasmiškai smerkia homoseksualumą.”

Tai kas šiandien biblijoje nedviprasmiška, rytoj jau bus tik mitas, kuris atseit visai ką kitą reiškia. Pavyzdžių yra daugiau nei pakankamai. Teologai biblijoje sugeba rasti pasiteisinimų viskam.

O dėl gėjų santuokos - kodėl manote, kad galite kištis į privatų žmonių gyvenimą? Koks čia nusikaltimas prieš visuomenę? Ką nors apvogė? Nužudė? Gal nusikaltimas, kad ne tą įsimylėjo?

Bedievis | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
taip, Andriau, ir aukštesnėse primatų rūšyse tai net ne sutrikimas, o natūralus reiškinys, pavyzdžiui tarp bonobo beždžionių homosexualūs santykiai atkuria vidinę bendruomenės taiką ir susitaikymą

VIESPATIE AUKSCIAUSIAS APSAUGOS MUMIS NUO TOKIU TAIKOS SUTARCIU…normaliai sulyginate…ziauru,atkuriant bendruomenes taika ir sutarima reiktu vyrams pasiisdykauti tarpusavyje…TRAGEDIJA…neturiu argumentu,cia jau priejome prie liepto galo:)

Pasiurpau. | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Homoseksualumas egzistavo visada, kiek istorija žino nuo Homero laikų. Ir tuometinėje Graikijoje, filosofų mokyklose net gi buvo labai populiarus. Tik bėda, kad keletas žydų, ir vėl žydai, be didelio turbūt mokslo pasiekimo prieš 2000 metų ir ankščiau, ėmė ir prirašė visokių teiginių, kurie relaybės neatitinka. Todel tie jų rašiniai tegul jiems ir lieka. Normaliai mąstantis ir ieškantis tiesos domisi, studijuoja, ieško tiesos, nenustota abejoti, kelti klausimus, būti atviras ir sumažinti savyje žvilgsnio ir širdies siaurumą.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Andriau,

Jei būčiau homoseksualus įsižeisčiau, kai rasčiau tokius žodžius “žmoguje genetinis defektas” arba “gamtos apsirikimas”. Primenu, kad PSO homoseksualumo nelaiko defektu ar liga.
Beje, nesi įpareigotas pritarti man ar skaityti mano mintis.

Tomas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Beje, Andriau Tavo paskutinis komentaras dvelkia antisemitizmu. Įspėju, kad dar kažkas panašaus irimsiuos priemonių.

Tomas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Tomai,

Na matai. Akiratis prasiveria po truputi.Tik dar lieka tai kas vadinasi agresyvumas. o gasdinti kazkokiomis priemonemis tai jau zinai, doram katalikui nederetu. Kristus kalbejo apie taika, o ne persekiojima, Viespats negasdino.
Bet suprantu tavo didiji nusivylima, nes pasaulis pagal tave yra tik tavo pasaulis.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Tomai,
Biblijoje niekur nėra vartojamas terminas homoseksualumas, ir niekur homoseksualūs santykiai kaip tokie - dviejų suaugusių tos pačios lyties žmonių lygeviarčiai meilės santykiai. Biblijos egzegetai teigia, kad smerkiamas tam tikras netinkamas sueities naudojimas - šventyklose daug kur praktikuota sakralinė prostitucija, o Paulius savo laiškuose vartoja žodžius arsenokoitai ir malakos, kurie taip pat neturi nieko bendra su homoseksualumu kaip tokiu, o su lytiniu socialiai silpno padėtyje esančių išnaudojimu, kas buvo tuo metu įprasta, ypač jaunų vaikinų, mažamečių, ir pan., o žodis malakos, kurį vartoja visai kitame kontekste ir Evangelijų autoriai, dar gali reikšti ir tiesiog ištižėlis. Vyskupas Sabutis matyt graikiškai neskaito

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Tomai
Ka tik ivyko naujas skandalas kataliku baznycioje. Olandijoje ir Belgijoje salezieciu vienuoliai 20 metu vaikus prievartavo.
kazkodel negirdejau kad gejai vaikus prievartautu, tai pas dvasiskus tevelius su vertybiu nepalauziama pozicija labai madingas uzsiemimas

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Andriau, paauglių verbavimas yra vienas pagrindinių gėjų pragyvenimo šaltinių. O jau kaip ten jie- prievartauja ar tik praveda “šviečiamojo pobūdžio” pamokėles vaikams, tai jau kiekvienas supranta savaip. Ane?
Gerai, kad užsiminei apie gėjus ir vaikus. Manau, gėjų santuokos bažnyčiose tik dar labiau atrištų rankas pupuliukams kovoti už galimybę įsivaikinti vaikus iš globos namų ar našlaičius.Ir šitoje vietoje niekaip neatsispiriu nepacitavęs Aušrelės Pažaraitės pavyzdį, kurį ji minėjo vienoje radijo laidoje, kai klausytojo buvo paklausta kodėl homoseksualai nenori turėti vaikų iš savo partnerio, bet nori jį įsivaikinti. “Buvo vienas žydų ortodoksų rabinas, kuris sakė, kaip galima spręsti šitą problemą, kad homoseksualai negali įvykdyti to Dievo įsakymo: „Veiskitės ir dauginkitės!“ Jis sakė, kad yra viena išeitis: įsivaikinti vaikus. Yra daugybė pamestinukų, našlaičių”.
Nuo skaitytojo klausimo KODĖL homoseksualūs asmenys negali vykdyti Dievo įsakymo: “Veiskitės ir dauginkitės” lyčių lygybės ekspertė vikriai išsisuko- “Rabinas sakė, kad yra išeitis: įsivaikinti”. Gudrus tas rabinas.

Rytis | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Atsiprašau, Aušrelėd Pažėraitės.

Rytis | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Andriau, formalus išsilavinimas nereiškia tikrojo žmogaus išmanymo ir supratimo, kartais net tuo atveju jei žmogus savo darbu (mokymusi) pasiekė tas formalias mokslo aukštumas.
Dėl homoseksualumo.
Lyginimas su gyvūnais netinkamas žmogui. Gyvūnų homoseksualumo pavyzdžių negalima aklai perkelti žmogui. Pirma - dalis homoseksualios gyvūnų elgsenos užfiksuota nelaisvėje - tai iškart kelia klausimą dėl jos natūralumo. Tais atvejais kai stebima laisvėje gyvenančių gyvūnų elgsena - nieko neįrodo. Kodėl žmogui reikėtų taikyti bonobų modelį bet netaikyti gorilų ar orangutanų? Ar dalies liūtų, gyvenančių “praidais”, kuriame yra vienas-du (retais atvejais 3-4) patinai ir keleriopai daugiau patelių, ir praide atėjus rujai vyksta besaikis kopuliavimas, nesirenkant partnerio, tad kiekvienas liūtas nežino kur jo o kur ne jo jaunikliai, todėl gina ir saugo visus to praido jauniklius kol jie užauga.
Žmogaus istorijoje yra buvę (o kai kur tebėra) įvairių šeimos modelių. Kodėl gi greta su homoseksualios “santuokos” modeliu neįteisinus daug natūralesnių poliginiškų ir poliandrinių ar net grupinių santuokų? Kiek žmonių būtų išvaduota nuo kančių, jei tai taptų teisėta ir bendruomenės toleruojama, nebereikėtų slapstytis, visi socialiniai-turtiniai santykiai būtų teisiškai sureguliuoti.
Nemanau kad senojoje paprotinėje lietuvių kultūroje, kur buvo stiprūs bendruomeniniai ryšiai būtų kreipiamas didelis dėmesys į kraštutinius nukrypimus. Kiek matau tą bendruomenę iš E. Šimkūnaitės knygų - visokius psichiškai kitokius buvo stengiamasi integruoti į bendruomenę, gydyti liaudiškomis priemonėmis (vaistažolėmis, bendravimu, darbo terapija), bet tada žmonės labai daug žinojo vieni apie kitus ir renkantis sutuoktinį buvo labai svarbi būsimų palikuonių sveikata, todėl būdavę sunkiau susituokti iš giminės kurioje būta paveldimų ligų, kurioje būta socialinės nedarnos. Veikė neagresyvi, sveiko proto ribose socialinė (iš dalies ir biologinė)eugenika. Žinoma, tas paveikslas idealizuotas ir tada turbūt būta visko, būta ir nepakantumo, išvarymo iš bendruomenės.
Tos, senosios paprotinės lietuvių bendruomenės jau nebėra, sueižėjusi (nežinau kiek) ir katalikiška besivadinanti Lietuvos bendruomenė. Bet kalba gyva, net ir dabar vyresnių žmonių kalboje išgirsi pasiguodžiant apie kelinti metai susituokusius vaikus - “viskas būtų gerai, tik va, šeimos nėra”; t.y. - vaikų nėra. Galima tai atmesti kaip anachronizmą, ir sakyti kad nauja tikrovė suteikia visai naujų prasmių žodžiui “šeima” ir sakyti, kad bendruomenė kurioje įteisinamos ir gerbiamos naujos asmenų bendrabūvio formos yra geresnė už bendruomenę, kuri tokių formų vengia ir nuo jų saugosi. Man gyventi mielesnė būtų pastaroji.

toks (biologas) | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
kada baznycia supras kad ji sugriove daugiausiai per savo egzistavimo laikotarpi, tada galesime testi diskusijas. kazkodel jie vis nesiliauja prievartauti ir kazkodel visi apie tai tyli ir priima kaip norma.Ir dar prievartaus, nes fodamentalizmas numusa nuo realybes.

andrius | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
totaliai nusirašėte į šoną, sekite temą, kalba eina apie Sakramentinę gėjų santuoką RKB, o ne apie homoseksualumo genezę, ar lingvistine Biblijos sąvokų analizę

eismo | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Aušrai

O kaip su terminu ἀρσενοκοίτης Arsenokoites taikomu 1 Kor 6,9?

Tomas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
eismo, pirma andrius ir bedievis tau turėtų pakomentuoti žodžio “sakramentas” reikšmę. Bet prieš tai turėtum perskaityti jų įžanginę dalį apie Bažnyčios klystkelius praeityje ir dabarty.
Ir tik tada, eismo, jau galima pereiti… ne, ne prie sakramentinės gėjų santuokos. Paskubėjai. Aušrelė dar tave turėtų nustebinti savo Biblijos išmanymo pasažais, paaškinti kodėl pasaulis netoleravo žydų XIII amžiuje, o tik tada… neskubėk, eismo, dar ne apie sakramentinę santuoką… dar apie gėjus, kaip Dievo dovaną mums, katalikams. Už ką mes Dievui turėtume būti dėkingi? Už tai, kad
Jėzus buvo gėjus(logiška tokia tąsa?).
Ir tik tada apie sakramentinę gėjų santuoką…
skubi, eismo.

Rytis | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Sveiki. Man juokingas argumentas (tiksliau, jo nekenčiu) - gamtoje homoseksualumo nėra, kiti puola įrodinėti yra. Kodėl mano gyvenimui ir jausmams paaiškinti reikia pingvinų ar babuinų?
Tas pats su genetika: neįrodyta, kad lemia genai, kiti - įrodyta, kag lytinę orientaciją lemia genai.
Koks skirtumas, kokios priežastys? LGBT yra ir taškas.
Negi imsim svaičioti, kad jokie žvėreliai krikščionių dievo negarbina ir Jėzaus nepažįsta?

valdas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Apie įsivaikinimą: jei valstybė tikrai vadovautųsi vaiko interesais, ji leistų įsivaikinti gėjams.
Atsižvelgdamas į visas “verbavimo” ir seksualinio išnaudojimo teorijas, galėčiau teigti, kad Katalikų bažnyčia nenori užleisti pozicijų: iš kur ji gaus vaikų seksualiniams poreikiams patenkinti…
Pratęsiu mintį: RKB visada menkina gėjų ir lesbiečių bendruomenę: Bažnyčios teigimu, gėjų ir lesbiečių tėra 1 proc. Tačiau Vatikanas pripažino, kad 4 proc. dvasininkų - pedofilai. Tai gal vaikus nuo katalikų dvasininkų reikia laikyti per šūvio nuotolį?

valdas | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Welcome to most big hospital , bienvenue a l’hopital pshyshique catholique, zdrastvuyte, vy nachodites v gospitale

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Valdai, kaip mano draugas pasakytų- nemutnink smegenų. Bųtų gerai, kad pagrįstum savo teiginį- “jei valstybė tikrai vadovautųsi vaiko interesais, ji leistų įsivaikinti gėjams”.
Kokie tie vaiko interesai, kuriais nesivadovauja valstybė?
O dėl pozicijų užleidimo, pasakysiu tau taip. Nei tu rauki, kas ta Bažnyčia, nei tiki, ką pats rašai- kad Bažnyčia nenori užleisti savo pozicijų vargšams gėjams.
Žiūrėk, Valdai, kad iš tavęs koks pedofilas kunigas neatimtų tavo duonos- tauškėt, ko pats nesupranti. O tai jausies nuskriaustas dvigubai.

Rytis | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Kas cia per briedas komentaras paskutinis. Vel gasdinimas. na kas gi cia gasdina dabar. na demokratijoj gyvenam

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
“O kaip su terminu Arsenokoites taikomu 1 Kor 6,9?”
Tomai, terminas arsenokoites tuose keliuose ankstyvosios krikščionybės tekstuose, kur pasitaiko, niekur nėra paaiškintas, ką jis galėtų reikšti, ir etimologija (arsen [vyras] + koites [gultas]), kaip lingvistai teigia, nurodo ne žodžio reikšmę, o istoriją. Visa, kas įmanoma padaryti, bandyti išsiaiškinti kontekstus, kuriuose jis vartojamas. O kontekstai - nuodėmių sąrašai. Nuodėmes autoriai paprastai grupuoja į kokius nors porūšius, pvz., seksualinės nuodėmės, ekonominės nuodėmės, ir pan… Arsenokoites pasitaiko ekonominių nuodėmių kontekstuose (žr. Sibilės orakulas 2.70-77.10 vardijama skyrelyje apie neteisingumą, panašiai II a. apokrifiniame tekste “Jono darbai” tas terminas vardijamas prie visų turtuolių nuodėmių, o ten, kur kalbama apie seksualines nuodėmes jo nėra… Ir panašiai kitur… Daroma išvada, kad arsenokoites yra terminas, nurodantis kažkokią seksualinio išnaudojimo formą ekonominiais sumetimais, arba ekonominį išnaudojimą seksualinės prievartos forma, pvz., vergų (tiek vyrų, tiek moterų) seksualinį išnaudojimą…

Aušra Pažėraitė | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Ponas Tomai,

ar neatrodo, Jums, jog laikas gydytis elektra?

Andriuxa | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
Pats istorinis faktas kalba, galesiu knuga padovanoti kas nores. Vienas prancuzu istorikas, buvo ir anglu ir amerikieciu istoriku, kurie tyrinejo visuotinus baznycios susirinkimus, bet is istorines puses. tai gi, kai vyko karstos diskusijos apie susirinkimus tarp graiku ir romos pasekeju, tie vadinamieji susirinkimai vykdavo apie metus arba du. graikai i susirinkimus atsivezdavo savo zmonas, o romos paskeju puseje buvo istisas prostituciu kaimelis. diena nsnekedavo apie dieviskus reikalus, o nakta diablerie absoluti kataliku puseje siautejo. Ir tai istoriniai faktai, surinkti vienuolynu bibliotekose apie tu metu katoliku tevelius, besprendziandzius kristau dieviskumo , zmogiskumo, trejybes paslaptis. kaip sakoma dvasinis troskulys buvo numalsinamas gyvulisku seksu su prostitutemis. na naujiena is siais laikais. kams reikia knygos, ne lietuviu kalba. rasyti kunigunda66@yahoo.com

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-02 | Atsakyti
kokiek čia daug daugžodziautoju, šakės, O Toma i elektros kede pasodintu ar net i pati pragara nusiustu is pykcio :)
atsipeikekit, nesiputokit. juk nei su sveiku (butent, sveiku) protu, nei su Baznycios Mokymu(butent, tradiciniu Romos kataliku Baznycios mokymu) nesiderina dvieju vyru, nesvarbu, sveiku, ar ligoniu šeimos kurimas ar santuoka. tai yra principas, dogma, jei norit. bele koks jusu stenejimas primena šunu lojima einant karavanui

danielius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Atsizvelgiant i tai kaip vyko tie dogmatiniai susirinkimai, galima sakyti, kad visai neblogai ten buvo. kunigunda knyga turi. Paiskino siek tiek.
Ir is vis, ka 5 patriarchatas Roma gali cia pasakyti, jeigu jos Romos, kuri pati pasiskelbe vienintele apastaline, niekada tokios ir nepripazino visi kiti patriarchatai. Roma yra tik 5 ir deja nykstantys patriarchatas, nes pasaukimu nebera, zmones nuo tu sunkujiu teologiju yra pavarge, nuo smegenu plovimo taip pat. Kitu patriarchatu ir dogmos sviesesnes, ir siaip kazkaip taikiai jie gyvena ir zmoniu nepersekioja. istoriskai Roma ir liko tik 5 patriarchatas, ir jos dogmos, priimtos po audringu naktu, rodo tu dogmu ribotoma.

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Nezinantys, eikite prasau pasiskaityti apie baznycios istorija. Tik reiketu skaityti ne lietuviskai.Ir pamatysite, kad tuo metu, kai buvo priiminejamos dogmos, buvo daug idomiu visuomeniniu reiskiniu.Pvz, katalikai turejo tik biblija lotynu kalba, graikai turejo ta pacia Biblija ir hebraiskai ir graikiskai, ir dar visa filosofini ziniu fonda, kuri jiems perdave arabai, Avicena ir kiti. Pas katalikus tuo metu, skaityti mokejo tik vyskupai ir tai ne visi. kunigai buvo berasciai, ka jau cia kalbeti apie lotynu kalba. Ir tie, kas vyko i susirinkimus, nelabai turbut galejo normaliai su graikais susineketi.Viduramziu kataliku baznycia buvo be rasto, zmones be knygu, nes knygu monopoli laike vienuolynai, kuriuose buvo po viena arba du vienuolius, kurie mokejo ir graiku ir lotynu ir hebraju. Tik deja, vyskupai sviesti neskubejo ir is vienuolynu sviesos nesiseme. O ir patys vienuolynai buvo autonominiai, nes jie turejo dideles teises ir didele nepriklausomybe.

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Turiu pastebėti, kad nusirašėte į lankas gerbiami komentuotojai.
Baikite savo svaičiojimus apie susirinkimus. Ne isorikai esate, ne apie juos rašiau. Kunigunda gali atmesti savo knygą į mano el-paštą?
Valdai, Vatikanas jokių skaičių apie pedofiliją nepripažino. Neklaidink lengvatikių.
Andriuxa telaimina Tave Viešpats kaip ir visus šios iskusijos dalyvius!

Tomas | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Aušra,

Dėl mūsų aptariamo termino, tai būtent šiame pauliškame kontekste jį ir žiūrime. O ten jis ir naudojamas homoseksualumui pasmerkti. Tokia kukli mano ne egzegeto nuomonė.
Ačiū, kad skaitai ir dalyvavai diskusijoje.

Tomas | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomai, butent baznycia, kuri nezino savo istorines praeities, negali kurti jokios ateities blaiviu protu. Jeigu galetum tu ta knyga gauti, tai labai noretum paskaityti. Tik nezinai, kas jas parase, ir kokiuose universitetuose laisvai destoma baznycios istorija. bet gal tam tikriems zmonems ir nereikia sviesos duoti, nes is sviesos tamsa padarys.
Kataliku baznycia viduramziais sugebejo tik vezdais mojuoti, nes skaityti nemokejo. Stai tau ir bajeris absoliutus.

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
labai daug vatos … ir gerbiama feministė vartosi kaip gyvatė, nebus santuoka tarp vyro ir vyro SAKRAMENTINĖ niekaip ir vargas Jūsų veltui norint įrodyt priešingai.

eismo | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Eismo
1.ismok aramejieciu , hebaraju, graiku, lotynu, prancuzu, anglu, vokieciu kalbu.
2.paskui perskaityk graiku filosofus, romos imperijos istorija, kultura, kontekstus
3.kai jau valdysi sias kalbas, galesi perskaityti Biblija visais judaismo dealektais, tada daugiau suprasi apie judaisma
4. kai suprasi judaisma, tada galesi pradeti skaityti evangelijas graikiskai, bet ir vel neiskrypstant is konteksto, susipazinus kas buvo tas periodas, kokios vyravo kulturos, kryptys, tada suvoksi konteksta

5.tada galbut pradesi suprasti ka Sv. paulius norejo pasakyti bendruomenems pries 2000 metu apie homoseksuluma
6.paskui eik i viduramziu istorijos studijas

matai, turi ka veikti gyvenima, tai paskubek, nes tai uzoms labai daug laiko

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
mielas andriau as labai noreciau visa tai padaryt, bet gyvenu 21 amziuje ir laiko daug neturiu, bet esu katalikas ir turiu interneta, tada randu tokia nuoroda, kur labai aiskiai isdesto pozicija suo klausimu: http://katekizmas.lt/kbk1996p2003/N161E9.html

eismo | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
prajuokinai, gal dar 1888 leidimo?
oi prajuokinai, na nerealiai pasilinksminau

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
gali juoktis, gali verkti, bet tėvo Germain Dufour veiksmas buvo viso labo niekinis aktas, kuris nieko nereiškia.

eismo | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tarp kitko, diskutuojančių akiračiui plėsti ir gilinti — gera metodistų teologo analizė dėl to, kaip ten su Biblijos draudimais ar ne dėl to homoseksualumo: http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink

Algirdas Davidavičius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Aciu Algirdai, skaitau ka duoda kataliku auksciausieji universitetai paskaityti. gal kada prie progos

andrius | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomuk, ir kam gi tau knygute? Kam tau zinoti, kad viduramziais zmones is tiesu vargingai gyveno, nebuvo sveikatos sitemos, nebuvo svietimo sistemos,nebuvo zmoniu mokanciu kelias kalbas, kam tau zinoti kad zmones dirbdavo vien uz tai kad kunigai ir vyskupai jiems duotu pavalgyti. Jie badavo beveik visi. ka jau cia knygos, lotynu kalba. Gal geriau tu nezinok, nes gali po tokiu skaitymu istikti insultas,infarktas, noras pabegti is 5 patriarchato Romos, ka as ir padariau. O beje ir knyguciu komplektas apie 2000 euru kainuoja ir ne visi gali tai ipirkti. Taigi,nezinok,kad pazinimas yra tam tikra sviesa. Galiu tave suprasti ir tavo fondamentalizma puikiai pateisinti. Zinant kai kurias labai tamsias tavo gyvenimo puses, galiu suprati grubu fondamentalizma ir tavo baime ikristi ten kur ir buvai. Todel ir matai visuose tik nuodeme, blogi, nes gal but ta tamsioji puse taves ir nepaliko. Bet nuodeme nera viskas, Kristus yra viskas ir baznycia supranta, pamazu supranta, kad gerio ideja svarbiau negu nuodemes, kad Kristaus prisikelimo Garbe ir Sviesa stipriau nei panieka ir ribotumas. Deja laikai pasikeite ir Aciu Dievui.
O tau sekmes pasaulyje pagal Toma

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Kiek pykčio, agresijos ir paniekos…
Kiek sužalotų ir nelamingų žmonių.
Kiek mažai intelekto ir harmoningų emocijų.
Dieve, duok savo šviesos!

Tomas | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Ka pasakei pats pries save pasakei mazuti. Zveris susierzino ir bejegiskumas, daug meslo kaip sakoma. kaltiname kitus pagal tai kuo patys esame. Cia jau psichologija. pasisviesk tuo klausimu

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Visi jus cia ispruse religijos klausimais ir tai yra ne mano reikalas, bet mane domina vienas paprastas dalykas. As kaip inzinierius tikiu mokslu ir sveiku protu, iki tikejimo kazkokia religija man dar toli, taciau as pastebiu, jog ponas Tomas , kaip vienos ar kitos realigijos atstovas, lenda i kitu zmoniu reikalus. Man idomu kodel taip smerkiamas sitas kunigas, ar kas jis toks, jog sutuoke 2 vyrus. Kurioj vietoj cia nusikaltimas. As pries homoseksualiu zmoniu paradus ir kutus panasaus masto renginius, bet tiesa ta kad jie egzistuoja. Ir egzistavo jau labiai seniai. Ir man kyla klausimas, ar kunigas ne zmogus, ar jo organizme nevyksta chemines reakcijos, ar geriau yra visam kunigu luomui tvirkinti mazamecius? Kodel Dievo tarnai keliaudami uzsimusa, ir ne vienas, o visas autobusas. Kodel tai ivyksta? Tarkim surealinkim viska, kunigas tarnauja dievui ir zmonems, jis skaitomas geru zmogumi ir pan, tai jei pas ji atejo zmogus ir paprase pagalbos, koks cia blogis, jei kunigas eme ir sutuoke tuos du zmones. 41 chromosoma… ir tik 2 apsprendzia kas tu toks busi, kokius rubus pirksi ir pan ir pan. Sekmes jums ponas Tomai. Ir dar jei Jus nusprendete grasinti laisvam zmogui del jo minciu susidorojimu, atminkite, jog viskas yra uzfiksuota. Sekmes ir viso gero.

Andriuxa | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
mano “susidorojimas” ir “grasinimas” paprastas - antisemitams bus atimta teisė komentuoti. Fiksuok tokį grasinimą:)

Tomas | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomai, net nesupranti, kad psichika pas tave vaziuoja i sali. Ir fiksuok tu nefiksaves, apie tave ne tiek prifiksuota, kad net nezinodamas ieisi ten, is kur nebeiseisi. na tu dar nematai, ir aklumo niekas negali atverti. o cia praraja, nes nera ne vienas tiek stiprus, kad nekristu.

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomuk, ar zinai, kad siandien kataliku baznycia Olandijoje viesai atsiprase geju bendruomes del to, kad vienam is ju nebuvo suteiktas svaentas sakramentas?
Ir Olandijos baznycia apgailestavo ir pripazini, kad jie klydo ir kad geju diskriminacija nebera problema.
Baznycia progresuoja suprasdama gyvybes, Dievo duotos paslapti. Ir ne tu teisi, ne tu smerksi. Liksi paskutinis fondamentinis bastionas, viduramziu dvasia, bet tik tiek. Ir tie kas tave skaitys, begs nuo taves. Net gi pape Benoit 13, net gi nuncijus, visi, kas supranta fondamentalizmo pavoju siuolaikinej kataliku baznycioj

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomukai, broli Kristuje, pereik prie love and peace idejos…

Andriuxa | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Ko jūs kimbate prie tų žmonių, kuriuos tokius sukūrė Dievas. Ar ne svarbiau, kad žmogus būtų geras, doras, tikintis, mylintis? Gal geriau gėjus, negu pedofilas kunigas??

Aš | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
kaip sako prancuzai: il faut savoir fermer la guelle

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-03 | Atsakyti
Tomai, nebespresk tu prasau geju problemu. Jos pacios issispres savaime.
Iskelk aktualia tema, butent kunigu seksualumas ir isklek klausimas, kas juos priveda iki prievartavimo aktu, vaiku ar moteru. Arba siaip kur nulekti i viesnami . Ir nustebsi giliai pamates,kad cia uzburtas ratas, kuris niekada nesustojo. Tai gi paklausk saves, kodel tai uzburtas ratas, kodel viena diena angelo veide pasirodo prievartautojas. Ten tu faktu kataliku baznycioje yra tiek, kad juos visus paviesinus, sprogtu viisa kataliku baznycia, nes nebebutu vaiku, kuriuos tevai noretu krikstyti kataliku konfesijoj. Ir tai tesiasi sie prevartos aktai jau kokie geri 1600 metu. Ir matai, problema ne kune, problema teologijoj. Paklausk saves kaip gi teologija suformuoja asmeni. Theologija yra maistas, kuriuo maitinami zmones. Tai gas gi pas katalikus kunigus yra negerai jeigu neikaip nesustoja prievartauti. Jeigu i si klausima sau atsakysi, galbut sugebesi rata uzburta nutraukti.

Agniete | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Tai kad katalikybeje visada yra viskas panasiu principu “darom ka norim”, tad nieko cia keisto…Norim Marija vietoj Jezaus padarom, norim vaikus tvirkinam, norim visus kas ne su mumis, sektantais isvadinam ir jei ka tai ir ant lauzo dar juos plius dar juos pakankinam pries tai gerai- zodziu viskas galima…

Olgerdas | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Agniete,

Būk rami, komentavau ir komentuosiu apie gėjus, pedofilus, klerikalus, antisemitus, teologiją, politiką. Parako man užteks.
Galite terlioti Bažnyčią, jei nuo to lengviau, be AŠ JĄ MYLIU, JA TIKIU.
Tikiu jos šventumu, nors pilna joje nusidėjėlių, kurių pirmasis esu aš.

Tomas | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Tomai, aš irgi esu nusidėjėlis, jei ka. ir sveikinu kad keli problemas, analizuoji, diskutuoji. Komentaru gausa ir skritingos nuomones, net pykčio ir psichologinės agresijos proverziai ruodo, ant kiek gilios jautrios ir negyjancios zaizdos yra pasaulyje ir baznycioje. taip pat, kas be ko, vis pamatome, kokie trapūs, mes, žmonės, mes, tikintieji bei musu ganytojai esame. is ivairiu pavyzdziu, o taip pat ir is savo mizerno gyvenimo galiu pasakyti, kaip daznai zmogui tera vienas zingsnelis iki suklupimo, ir kaip paskui reikia nueiti daug zingsniu, kad atsitiestum. svarbiausia, kad viskas iseina i gera tik su Dievo pagalba, ir tik mylintiems Dieva.
Linkiu sau ir visiems, kad neuzsisklestume savo silpybese, savo klaidose, savo nuodemese, ydose. ir kad nesakytume balta, kur yra juoda, nevadintume blogio gėriu, ištvirkimo ir sugedimo nelaikytume gėriu, kaip kad atsitinka homoseksualų atveju.

danielius | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Hm… Tomai tiki baznycia? O as ne, ypac istvirkele. Nes tikiu Kristumi, kuris vienas atleido mano nuodemes o ne kokia baznycia.Ir beje irgi esu nusidejelis kaip ir tu,gal net ne mazesnis…

Olgerdas | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Labas , Tomai, Viešpats šią šventą dieną myli Tave …ir tavo komentatorius …
Tas tiesa , perskaičius komentarus , labai daug tamsaus teksto …žodžiuose , jų konstrukcijose jaučiasi tiesiog fizinė tų žmonių TAMSA ir Puikavimasis …. Bet vis tiek linkiu tau Kalbėti - dalintis nuo širdies , atvirai , žinant kad „sielos perlai “ gali pakliūti ir „kiaulėms“ po kojų …
Žinai , rašau visai kita intencija
…Šitas Nuožmus Vėjas pučia iš Vakarų , bet apie tai vėliau …
Dabar gi plečiasi , gilėja ir draskosi Skaistumo ir Išminties BAIMĖ - WhiteFobija ,…
Skaistumas pravoslavų kalboje verčiamas kaip „celomudrijė“(chastity), целомудрие

1. целомудрие
2. девственность
3. чистота
4. строгость
5. девственность
6. невинность
7. воздержанность
8. непорочность

kaip Išminties pilnatvė , kaip Širdies(tokio mąstymo)Tyrumo dimensija , kai asmuo geba Daiktų ir Dalykų ir Reiškinių padėtį ir santykius regėti tokius kokie jie yra Absoliuto - vidinės ir Išorinės Tikrovės Šviesoje , muzikalioje darnoje … Tai pati tikriausia FOBIJA , skaistumo ir išminties ,arba sutrumpintai WhiteFobija
Čia yra Filosofo Degučio http://on.lt/ksenofilija straipsnis apie ta Nuožmų Vėją iš Vakarų , kuris tame kontekste gėjų problematika yra tik žiedeliai ….Keliasi tikras Tvarkos Žvėris , nes žmonės nebenori (dėl įvairios vidinės destrukcijos) surasti tikro vaisingo kelio į bendruomeniškumą, į Laisvę ir atsakomybę, į laisvą , o ne Sąlyginę Rinką …Iš esmės gėjai čia nė prie ko , bet toji atūžianti Naujos Tvarkos Žvėriška sistema naudojasi ir vis labiau naudosis visais „nuskriaustaisiais“ ,ir gali būti , kad tos „teisės “ pradės plėstis ir vis labiau plėsis iki pasijusim kaip gyvenam Orvelo „Gyvulių Ūkyje “.
Sėkmės , Kantrybės Viešpatyje , Esančiojo Malonės ir Pavasarinės Atgaivos

Rodyklė | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Dziaugiuosi, kad parako pakaks. Tik mechanizmas gali neatlaikyti.Mylek baznycia, kuri vaikus prievartauja. Siandien naujas pedofilijos skandalas, apie 1OOO vaiku isprievartautu. Mylek blogi, kas tau uzdraudzia. Pats vaiku neturi, todel nesupranti, kad jie po to nusizudo, kai kunigelis vietoje Jezaus peni parodo ir dar istumia. Sekmes sekso megejams

Agniete | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Žinai Agniete, šis komentaras tik rodo kokio lygio žmogus esi. Kai sugebi niekinti žmogų, o dedies gėrio skleidėja ir prispaustųjų gynėja…
Ir dar ne Bažnyčia prievartauja vaikus, o iškrypę individai. Jų yra visur: tėčiai, patėviai, dėdės, auklėtojai.
Tad savo pykčiu naikink šeimas, mokyklas, parlamentus, teismus.

Tomas | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Nieko as nenaikinu. baznycia tavo naikina, o suprasti negali. bet tave is vis reikia ignoruoti ir tavo straipsnius, nes nieko pozityvaus jie neduoda. vien tik aklas gondamentalizma, kuris pasibaigs taip kaip jam skirta. Aklo ,uo aklumo nieks neisgelbeja, net gi medicina. Bye saule , buna ir sualiu aptemimai

Agniete | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
zinai, kai ligoniu parodai, kad jis ne ligonis, jis pradeda pristarauti. paskui, ateina supratimas, geda, tas pats uzburtas ratas ka daryti, kad Jezaus vardu nezudyti. Tu neskiri blogio. zudyti sakant kad Dievas tave myli jau yra ne tik nuodeme, bet ir pragaro vartai. Daug motinu prakeike amziams kato baznycia, nes jus vaikai nusizude po to kai kunigelis jam penisa parode. Ir paskaityk tu visazini pasaulio ziniasklaida ir matyk, neregy, matyk, kur didziausias sukuriamas blogis. Bet su tavimi tik tam tikru instanciju zmones gali bendrauti. Sveiko proto pabega. Kas toleruoja prievarta ir nekaltumo isniekinima, pats yra toks pats savo mastyme ir sirdyje. ir neaiskink man, tu fondamentali bazna, ka as turiu kalbeti ir daryti.Ir man parako uzteks daugiau, nes mano kunas stiprus. bye

Agniete | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Ir beliko tik sita saunuoli pristatyti geju organizacijai, kuri ji uz skleidziama diskriminacija ir kurstyma neapykantos patrauktu i srasburo teisma.
Taip pat beliko ji apskusti i vatikana, kuris galisi del kunigu pedofilu
Beliko tik tuo uzsiimti ir paprasyti atlyginti zala , na kokius 250000 euru.
Valio!Taip ir darysime

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Ir reiketu ji atiduoti Vatikanui, pabreziant kad sitas jaunuolis turjo didele piktuju dvasiu saukimo patirti, ir kad saukesi jis setono is visu savo sielos gelmiu, ir kad viskas yra irasyta mazuciame diktofone. Vatikanas nustebs kaip viename asmenyje gali buti ir demonas ir dievas.
Aciu Tomai,

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Kato baznycioj zudo gal ir atskiri individai, bet vis dar kunigai, tai gi susivienyje kumonijoje sakramentinej su kataliku baznycia ir kalba jie visi apie Jezaus meile. Gal tau linkus atsiusti is 6 pasaulio saliu skirtingom kalbom, kur visi kataliku kardinolai zengnojasi pries ju individus pedofilus. Kai nematai tai ir nematai

Agniete | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Vatikanas labai jau atsargiai paziures i demonu saukejo patirti, broli kristuje. o viska gyvenime galima irodyti, absoliuciai viska, tik kai kurie apie tai pamirsta, nes uzmirsta savo tamsiaja ir siaubinga piktojo praeiti ir jo ieskojima

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
dar ir Lietuvos ziniasklaida reiketu informuoti apie tai kas yra sis mastytojas. Baugu darosi nuo brolio kristuje

Andrius | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Jo, tam tikri sviesuliai, nepamirse savo demonisku patirciu skelbia kristaus sviesa. Tik kristuje viskas pozityvu.

kunigunda66 | 2010-03-04 | Atsakyti
Na ir visai jis nereliginis fanatikas. Tik vargsas zmogus, kuris atsivertes i krikscionybe, sustojo ties kataliku baznycios katekizmu. Ismoko mintinai ir desto. Bet aciu Dievui ir baznyciai, kad yra dar ir universitetu ir ypac Europos universitetuose savo malunumui studijuoja krikscionys, nes baznycia nori, kad zmones butu sveiki ir sviesus, kad pazintu praeiti, pripazintu klaidas, ismoktu kurti kazka naujo ir stengtis kazkokia nauda atnesti. O Tomas, tik pozicija demonstruoja. Tik pozicijos laikai jau praejo, atejo dialogo laikai ir ieskojimas kartu kaip gi isspresti esancias problemas. Ir daug, net ne tikinciuju, dirba kartu su baznycia, svarsto, padeda jai savo sugebejimais, savo protu, savo issilavinimu, iesko kartu.
Ir jeigu Tomai, tu liksi tik pozicijoje, tai dialogas nebeimanomas, kurti kartu nebeimanona. O kurti tai suprasti, kad jeigu jau skelbiesi krikscionimi, tai uz tas problemas ir ypac pedofilijos atvejai baznycioje, yra labai skaudus reiskinis, ir verkia net gi kardinolai. Ir verkia daug krikscioniu verkia, nes tai labai skaudu. Ir musu visu pareiga ieskoti iseities , kad to nebebutu.
Tu negali ieskoti, nes nenori, nes pozicijos tvirtumas tau neleidizia buti lanksciu. As keliu klausimus, bendrauju, ir ieskau. Tuo mes ir skiriames, nes vieni mato kas yra negerai, asaros kartais byra, bet ieskome kaip apsaugoti nuo tokiu dalyku. Todel kad pati baznycia yra sakraline zmoniu sakralumu ir sujungti mes visi per sakraluma. Pripazinti yra sunku, bet po to gali kurti ir padeti ir ieskoti atsakymu , praktisku atsakymu ir sprendimo budu. Tu negali, nes galbut neduota, o gal ir pats nenori. Kurti tai sviestis, o svietimasis ne facebooke, ten tik marazmo prisigert gali. Svietimasis tai daug daug knygu, daug pastangu.
Ir prasau, jeigu tau labiau patinka face booke tai ten ir svieskis. Bet neprovokuok ir neerzink tu kurie is tiesu tai baznyciai kazka daro. Daro net gi tada kai buna labai skaudu. Ne provokacija ir zmoniu erzinimas pades tai paciai baznyciai, kuri iesko dialogo, vadinasi iesko zmoniu.

Agniete | 2010-03-05 | Atsakyti
agniete, ka tu nori pasakyti, jei gali kokiais pora sakiniu, nes daug prirasai, neaisku ko sieki

danielius | 2010-03-05 | Atsakyti
Tomai

Malonu buvo su tavimi bendrauti, bet sakau tau ate, nes man nereikia guru. Uztenka man tai ka turiu. Isklausem tavaja pozicija ir kazkodel man atrodo, kad viskas ko tu ieskai, tai tik pulti ir gintis, provokuoti ir izeidineti ir tavo dievas facebook.
Taip, normaliai funkcionuojanti baznycia iesko dialogo su visais zmonems ir neprimeta savo pozicijos kaip vieninteles galimos. Pozicija buvo viduramziuose, ten mastyti nereikejo, reikejo tiketi, netikejai tai sudegino. Buvo ten ir kalavijas ir matai kokia dabar didele baznycia geografine prasme. Jei nezinai praeities, kurti ateities nebegali. Todel ir dziaugiuosi, kad siais laikais vyrauja dialogas, zmones kartu kuria, iesko, kaip sake Agniete, kartu ir studijuoja ir dziaugiasi galu gale suprate, kad krikscionybe yra meiles religija, ir kad meile laisvai pasirenkame patys, be primestu poziciju. Ir dziaugsmas yra is to, kad Kristaus kanciai nieko nepridesi, tai gi ir kankintis nebeikia, reikia gyventi ir dziugauti, kad Kristus is tiesu sujunge su Dievu ir parode zmogaus verte, kurinijos verte.
Ir dziaugsmas yra toje tikejimo laisveje, tada nereikia nei pulti, nei provokuoti, nei gintis, nes nesijauti nei izeistas, neis iskaudintas, nei erzinamas. Normali baznycia nei puola nei ginasi, nes ji zino, kad ji yra, jai nereikia saves parodyti, jai nereikia ant visu stogu saukti kad Kristus cia. Ji gyvena, dirba, iskelia problemas, kencia, verkia del zaizdu. Ji gydosi kartu su tikinciaisiais, kartu su jais iesko tiesos, iesko budu ispresti ziaurias problemas.
Kodel gi puoli Agniete, nes ji taves nepuola. Ji iskele zaizda, skausma, nes ji paprasciausiai sutiko motinu, kuriu vaikai buvo isprievartauti ir paskui nusizude. Kodel tu bandei sumazinti blogi ir teigti kad pedofilas yra tik pedofilas. Tai yra blogai, bet kunigas pedofilas jau visai blogai. Ir kodel kardinolai verkia, nes tas blogis uzmusineja. O tu puoli Agniete, nes tau patinka pulti. Agniete galbut iesko metodu tiksliu kaip atskirti pedofila, ir zinai, sioj sriti baznycia ziniu neturi, nes nezino, kad yra tarptautines organizacijos, kurios identifikuoja pedofilus pagal tam tikrus kodinius klausimus. Ir jeigu Agniete duos katalikams, si metoda, manau ji padarys labai gera darba siai baznyciai.
Tai gi, matai, Tomai, normalus normaliai ir dirba ir jiems reklamu nereikia, bent jau tokios kuria tu pasidarei, kad visas pasaulis tave zinotu. Net popiezius tokios reklamos neturi. Bet kai dievas facebook, ka cia pasakysi.
Ir is vis, buk gerutis, na uzsirasyk i neakivaizdines teologijos studijas internete, gal jau Lietuvos universitete yra. Paskaityk knyguciu, vien tam , kad prarastum pozicija, ir ja vel is naujo atrastum, tik galbuk kitokia. Pravartu Tomai, buti teologijos studentu, nes nera rizikos tapti sektantu ar guru. Ir po siu studiju, nebereikes tau nei pulti, nei gintis, nei provokuoti, nei erzinti. Dirbsi tu Jezui, kuri tu bandai myleti, ir gerai dirbsi.
Ir dar patarimas, niekada nepulk zmoniu. Manau, kad tie kas cia su tavimi bendravo, turi labai daug ziniu ir diplomu ir dirba jie baznyciai, oi kaip dirba. Jiems nereikia kurti blogu, i kuriuos galetu visokias makabriskas nuotraukas is facebook ilipdyti.
Sekmes tau.

andrius | 2010-03-05 | Atsakyti
Gal kas nors gali atsakyti, kodėl Antikos laikais, kuomet homoseksualizmas buvo gan įprastas reiškinys, vyrai su vyrais nesituokdavo?

davatka | 2010-03-07 | Atsakyti
Seniai čia nebuvau. Ohooo, kiek komentarų. Va kur pasirodo aktuali tema. Ir baisu, kiek pritariančių. Bet juk tai sodomijos nuodėmė. Ir čia viskas aišku. Žinoma krikščionims. O kiti, aišku gali turėti savo nuomonę. Bet ir gamtos atžvilgiu tai yra visiška nesamonė. Ir jei taip norit, jums nepatinka Dievas, tai gamta jums (t. y. mums) atkeršys. Čia visiškas egoizmas, atseit AŠ noriu mylėtis…

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